Current Power Tiers

[Arguleon Veq]

With a few new books released I thought it would be time to look at how these are placed in the power tiers, here is my current thinking;

Tier 1:
Daemons,
Vamp Counts,
Dark Elves.

Without a doubt the big 3. Always dominating the top 10 of any relevent tournament all 3 of these armies are brutally powerful. Daemons being the worst of the 3.

Tier 2:
Lizards,
High Elves,
Brettonia,
Empire.

Lizards are in tier 2 in part because of how good they are against Daemons and Vamps, 2 of the top 3 armies. They are still a powerful army in their own right though with a heavy magic phase, some of the best value infantry blocks in the game in Spear Sauros and the powerful Ancient Stegadon.

High Elves have their super builds, Star Dragon, Double Dragon, Teclis. Bolt Thrower/Magic gunline. Plus ASF is still a huge pain for many armies. The fact that they also totally break the whole army composition rules also comes into play.

Bretts are still very powerful and importantly, very easy to use. Loses some power due to their loss of effectiveness against Daemons and Undead who they cant break on the charge. Against other armies though, they are still very powerful. The Pegasus army can give anybody nightmares.

Empire are here because of a couple of specific builds and options, namley the Steam Tank [especially when you bring 2!] War Alter and Karl Franz on a Dragon. Fantastic shooting and reliable infantry thrown in help to put them in tier 2.

Tier 3:
Warriors,
Dwarfs,
Skaven,
Wood Elves,
Tomb Kings.

The rest. These are your middle of the road armies. Warriors despite being a newer book are effected by the ease in which they are march blocked and the difficulty they face when fighing any serious firepower or big flyers.

Wood Elves have taken a hit with the increase in magic across the lists making Forest Spirits less useful.

Tier 4:
Beasts,
Orcs,
Ogres,
Dogs of War.

Clearly the weakest armies in the game. Orcs and Beasts can compete with the use of Special Characters but other than that they have a hard time.

Note: Not ranked within Tiers.

I think some people could argue Wood Elves swapped with Empire but I just dont see it personally. Wood Elves are very dependant on the terrian you are using. It doesnt really matter for the Empires very powerful units.

Dwarfs with Thorek are VERY powerful but that is only 1 option and 1 build, despite that they are very middle of the road.

[Deraj]

Did you rank in order as well as tier? If so I must disagree with you.

Tier 1:
Daemons
Vampire counts
High Elves
Dark Elves

It's my opinion that High elves belong there, but I do not wish to argue it.

Tier 2:
Mortals of Chaos
Brettonians
Wood Elves
Empire

Wood elves never needed forest spirits in the first place, they do amazing by playing a game that no one but beastmen play. They control the board, they control the enemies movement quite well, they have some nice fast cavalry and warhawk riders.

I did not rank lizards because I have not experienced them in their new book. Empire I put at low tier 2 because they just don't seem to have too much power.

Tier 3:
Tomb kings
Skaven
Orcs & Gobbos
Ogres
Beasts
Dwarves

At the place I game Thorek is banned. Without him I find them noncompetative. I find beasts to be above them because if their marks are used properly they can be pretty powerful. Ogres get their outnumber alongside fear causing, so they are pretty strong. Besides, ever see some knights get hit by a scrap launcher? I'm pretty sure that's the only time I've seen the big template used in fantasy, and adding in killing blow is pretty cool.

I didn't add Dogs of war because I don't respect them as an army.



Just kidding, it's because I have never played against ana army of them, just units.

[Arguleon Veq]

Nope, no order within the Tiers.

The only ones I would definativly rank in order of power is Tier 1, and that would be Daemons, Vamps, Dark Elves. Although many people think Dark Elves have the edge on Vamps.

How come you think Mortals are Tier2? I have seen a few people agree with that just wondering your reasoning on it?. IMO they take alot to do well with and even then you get outmatched at the things you are best at.

[Deraj]

Where I play now has changed my entire outlook on warhammer. Before I would have agreed, but go play against a list with 5 units of 5 dogs, 2 units of 5 maruader horsemen, 2 units of 10-20 marauders, and the obligatory 20 warriors.


The dogs kill....




*Of course with the casual gamer they may not be so great, I'm getting used to playing against GT winners....

[Arguleon Veq]

The very best player in the world would not place anywhere near the top 10 with a Warriors list like that though.

Perhaps your group is just having problems with Warriors because they are a newer list and you havent adapted to them yet?

I think it is the complete opposite, casual gamers might have a hard time against Warriors, tough to kill infantry and knights, can take a charge and beat most units in combat.

Good gamers can run rings around Warriors, too slow and cumbersome, too easily countered by a good player.

[Deraj]

GT winner twice. No offense, and I hope the censor gets this, but knights are absolute nuts. Hounds and Marauder horsemen completely swing games, especially with armies using mark of slaanesh, the hound reload system, and hound blocking.

Hound blocking works like this: (Hounds= H, Marauder horsemen=M, and enemies= E)

MMMMMMM
HHHHHH


EEEEEEE

Therefor only a few enemies can see the marauders to shoot them and the marauders can still charge. The dogs can also be used to charge block your own guys if you like to use frenzy.

Dog reload works like this: (Hounds being H, General being G, unit around him being U, and units with mark of Slaanesh being S)


Enemy



HHHHHH

HHHHHH
SSSSSSS UUUUGUUUU

[Arguleon Veq]

Just because he is a GT winner twice [which GT's?] doesn't mean he will win a GT with a Warrior list, especially not one like that. Competative Warriors lists are either Cav or magic heavy, it has already been established.

Hound screening is a very simple tactic that a great many armies can use and have been using for a long long time. You have to consider too that the Hounds will have to charge another unit for those Horse to charge that unit they want, or both will have to charge that unit as chargers are moved first so the Hounds have to get out of the way somehow.

Vamps do it with their Dire Wolves. Wood Elves can use their Glade Riders to do it for their Wild Riders. Orcs can use their Wolves to do it for their Boars.

Really, Cav screening is not a reason as to why Warriors work, as every army can do it and you see it almost every game.

I 100% guarantee that even if it is somebody that has already won legit GT's, he will not win with a Warriors list like that. He will not come anywhere near winning a legit GT with a list like that.

Same with the baiting for the flank charge in that second example. It is very common, nearly every army can do it and it is easy to deal with.

Warriors at their most competative are all mounted with heavy magic support and even then, they are not on the level of the top two tiers.

[Deraj]

The problem here is that Chaos can not only bring "Target rich environment" to a whole new level, they give you no room to manuever when they do this, allowing them the upper hand from the start. Who cares if your knights can kill 2-3 guys? Your dogs can outnumber and rear charge, then kill.... maybe 1? With another unit flank charging?


OR let me put it this way. 7 knights with a full command and mark of Khorne? Or even nurlge, which I like (I like mark of slaanesh too, but that screws my math) those 7 knights equal how many dogs?



60. 12 units of 5? Sure. 6 units of 10 for a rank? Ok. 3 units of 20 to really screw with your opponent? Well hell, it could be fun. You don't need to bait with 60 dogs, you will fill the board. Price in money would be a pain here, at... $22 for 10 dogs, or about $18 where I buy them.

I call chaos a powerful army because of one thing. Their troops. They don't need to take a single special or rare. In fact I think all of their specials and rares are hit or miss, so if you really want to win before the game starts, why bother?




I don't want this to look like me vs you Veq, so everyone out there who just watches.... POST HERE! ( )

[Morglum]

I agree with everything on there, APART from dwarves being the worst army, they shoot most stuff to pieces with ease, in a 2k list you could get over a 100 thunderers in, 4/6 shots hit, and against normal infantry 4/6 wound, so 2/6 of the shots wound which totals for over 30 kills on normal infantry, for about 3 turns!

EDIT: that was directed at deraj, Veq I think got it right with somewhere in the middel

[Arguleon Veq]

Those Hounds are only M7 though Deraj, easy to kill and suffer from psychology. They are also not fast cav.

So if a unit of 5 hounds charges the flank or rear of any decent units, enough will be killed to totally negate the rank breaking or flank/rear bonus as they will be under US5.

They are too slow to reliably get the rear of units. They have to pass psychology on awful leadership to charge anything with fear, they can also be panicked very easily.

A unit of Hounds even charging a missile unit will lose some to stand and shoot and then be outnumbered and beaten in combat.

They are a handy unit. But they dont make Chaos Warriors powerful.

Just compare them to Dire Wolves at 1 point more.

[Deraj]

@veq, I think the Chaos warrior's troops are what make them so powerful, I just find the hounds to be the best of the troops. Look at Nurgle and Slaanesh magic though. Nurgle is a good noob magic, lots of hitting power, and for more experienced players you get Slaanesh magic, which really screws your opponents.

@morglum:

1. For dwarves, look at GT rankings and such. Orcs and ogres can win them or place well, dwarves just cannot without that one uber cheese character. So statistically who is the worst army? Dwarves. (Technically DoW, but they are not allowed at most big tourneys.)

2. I am not saying dwarves are so terrible, I am just saying everything else is better.

3. If you would like, I will explain why I find Ogres and Orcs to be better than dwarves, but if you do not care, I won't take the time to explain it. (Not to sound like a jerk about it, I just know that people have a right to their opinion and if I'm not going to change it, I should not try and come off as though my opinion is better.)

Also, as I have been searching for recent GT results for the last 20 minutes, if anyone knows where to find them it would be greatly appreciated. The only results I have found were that of my friends in Rochester, Da Boyz. The results can be found here. If you would like to look, please notice the 2nd name on the list, Alex white. I have played that list, and it it.... frightening.

[Morglum]

All armies have a cheesy list, and that's what makes them GT winners, the cheesiest list wins is what I generally find, so if we look at the Cheesiest list for dwarves, there are 2, maybe 3 armies that have one to match it, or better, Daemons, VC and DE.

In the '07 GT a cheesy High elf list won, but a cheesy dwarf list came not long after, cheese wins tournies, if you can't make a cheesy list you're not going to win!

[Arguleon Veq]

Yeah, I love the Chaos Lores, especially Slaanesh, its just a shame that lore is less effective against ITP armies.

This is overall power tiers though Morglum, so having 1 ultra cheese build does put the army up in tiers on its own, it isnt the only factor, which is why I placed Dwarfs in the middle tier. Overall though I dont think they are anywhere near as bad as Orcs and Ogres.

For some GT results Deraj, the UK GW Site has the results from the UK GT Heats 1,2,3 and the Final.

[Arguleon Veq]

Heat 1 -

Of the top 45 [out of 140] places, these were the armies;

17 Demons
10 Dark Elves
9 Vampires
4 Empire
1 Skaven
1 Wood Elf
1 High Elf
1 Tomb King .

Here are the top 10;

1st Adam Hall - Demons
2nd Shane Baxter - Demons
3rd Will Goodwin - Empire
4th Phil Manwaring - Demons
5th Fabio Panicucci - Demons
6th Ben Curry - Dark Elves
7th Michael Biggs - Demons
8th Lee Khater - Demons
9th Elia Bonucci - Demons
10th Joe Sturge - Dark Elves

[Rafe]

Not sure I'd class Goblins as low - our local goblin player plays a very strong army. Course that is just the one person.

I'd definately count high elves in the top tier however, the combination of either magic assault or magic disruption can cripple armies relying on it - and ASF is just wrong on so many levels.