First Welf 2K list

[Kaffl]

So, check it out. I tried this list against a Helf player and scored a minor victory. There was only the most minor tooling, and it can be easily changed around to play against any army really. So, without further ado,

Highborn - 285
Waywatcher Kindred
Moonstone of Hidden Ways
Bow of Loren
Pageant of Shrikes

Noble - 158
Alter Kindred
2 Hand Weapons
Briarsheath
Shield
Amber Pendant (this was the tooling and can be changed)

Spellsinger - 175
Level 2
Divination Orb (also a small amount of tooling, though I'd take it against most anything)
Dispel Scroll

Branchwraith - 165
Level 1
Cluster of Radiants
Murder of Spites

10 Glade Guard - 176
Scouts
Lord's Bowman

20 Glade Guard - 146
Lord's Bowman

20 Glade Guard - 246
Lord's Bowman

8 Glade Riders - 204
Horsemaster

9 Waywatchers - 224
Shadow Sentinel

12 Dryads - 156
Branch Nymph

So, the list is meant to all work together, obviously, with the Scouts and Glade Riders being Harassment. The Waywatchers are killy enough that they do more than just harass. I've also found that Glade Guard are simply amazing when in massed numbers and close range. Dropped a unit of Phoenix Guard down to a man (one model was left - Caradrien or something along those lines). I've also sound that single models are my bane.

Let me explain that last bit. Over the course of two games, a single model murdered 3 units and over 40 models. It was a 130 point Shadow Warrior Noble armed with Heavy Armour, a Great Weapon, and a Longbow. He has earned the name Stone Cold Steve Austin, and has also earned a hell of a paint job (and a house rule that all Wood Elves fear Stone Cold Steve Austin). When I say he single-handedly butchered all those models, I mean that I would stand and shoot with my Glade Guard, kill all the Shadow Warriors, and he would kill 3 models in Close Combat. I can't attack back at that point, and I lose combat by 2. I then break and he runs me down. He's killed 2 large units of Glade Guard and a unit of Waywatchers all on his lonesome before. That's just wrong. My Waywatcher Highborn was created to attempt to rival him, but I can't beat him in Close Combat, I'd have to shoot him down (good thing I can teleport!).

At any rate, please critique this list. I'm not exactly good with Wood Elfs yet, but I'm going for an Asrai list. I need more Welfs before I can drop the Dryads though. Also, any ideas as to what I should buy up next? Thanks!

[Arguleon Veq]

I like the characters.

I think every one of your units is too big though. None of them really need the Champions either.

How are you getting all those shots off with the Glade Guard? especially with stand and shoot. Surely you dont have space to deploy 20 wide?

Id split every unit you have in two where you can. Including the Scouts.

Lose all the Champions and only take 7-8 Dryads, you shouldn't need anymore as you wont be able to fit much more than 6 in combat.

I'd consider giving 1 Scout Unit a Standard and the banner that adds the range to March blocking, gives you more time to shoot then.

I'd drop a few Waywatchers too or maybe a pair of Glade Riders 2 of each would be handy.

The points you save could buy you a unit of Wild Riders for no loss in effectiveness.

[Kaffl]

Actually space has never, ever been an issue as of yet. I can deploy 20 wide in most any situation to be truthful. You're probably right about splitting units in half though, and I hadn't thought of doing that. There's no real advantage in just having a few big units.

About your Wild Rider idea, although I realise Wild Riders are useful, I disagree with taking them. I want to phase out all forest spirits/cc units because I want an Asrai list what does nothing but shoot and move and kill and win. That's what I'm going to be aiming for.

I'm flattered that you like my characters. You could say they're my specialty after playing Vampire Counts. You learn how to make effective/cheap characters when you've played Vamps for a while. They all have rather obvious purposes of course. I'm very pleased with myself with the Waywatcher Highborn to tell you the truth. He does exactly what I wanted him to do. He shoots way too much and he teleports the Waywatchers when they get in danger ("Hah! I have surrounded your Waywatcher with Close Combat units and will charge you next turn! How will you get out of this one?" "Simple, I will teleport to safety and shoot you from somewhere else!" "Blast!").

At any rate, it's likely that I'll drop the units to half strength and take twice as many where applicable. I'm not really a fan of min unit sizes, but it makes a lot more sense. At least I'm not min/maxing like a sissy Helf. I want to phase the Dryads out, and I think I'll replace them with a unit of Waywatchers (or Hawk Riders - I've been eyeing those models up. Yes, I know they're meant for CC, but they're just sooooo cool-looking!). The Branchwraith will be replaced with a noble on Great Eagle if I do take the Hawks, or another Alter Noble if I don't I think. Or another Spellsinger with the Cluster of Radiants since I like dispel dice.

Last off Arguleon, while the scouts with the march block banner do seem rather effective and obnoxious, I'm opposed to taking banners of any type at the moment. Free VPs if they are captured and I don't like the way they look in a Welf army. Read: I hate the way they look. Why would my stealthy Asrai army be carrying standards, ever? That's not stealthy!

Thanks for the comments though, I'll have another list up pronto.

[Kaffl]

So, 2 days and no replies later...

I'm thinking of adding Warhawk Riders. Would that kind of thing work out in an army like this? Has anybody had any experience with them yet? Put a few of those in and add a Noble on a Great Eagle in place of the Branch Wraith. Whaddya think?

[Arguleon Veq]

I use Warhawk riders, they are certainly a decent harassment unit. They are well worth a go.

You lose 2 Dispel Dice doing that though which could be very costly.

Then again, you also end up with a unit that is good at mage hunting without sacrificing itself.

You like the models and ima big fan of warhawk riders too. So i reckon you should give thema try.

[Deraj]

Well, I do agree that the warhawks are useful, but I'm not sure about the Noble on the eagle. I do hate branchwraiths though, so I guess the question comes down to how much magic you'll run into. If it's Helfs again, I'd take the branchwraith, just for the dispell.

[Kaffl]

Around my neck of the woods I don't run into many magicky Helfs. I don't understand it either, but the list I was playing against just has an Archmage, and the other Helfs I play against uses lots of Nobles and whatnot, but never any mages unless he thinks I'm playing magic-heavy.

I can drop the Divination Orb for the Cluster of Radiants though and then only be losing 1 dispel die. How does that sound?

The noble on the eagle - is that idea out? I dunno if he'll be any good. The one question I then want to ask is this - does the unit of Warhawk whatsits lose hit'n'run if he joins? Or can he join at all? I didn't think about it, but I don't think the Eagle's classed as Flying Cavalry...?

[Arguleon Veq]

Well the noble could actually make the unit break enemy units witha rear charge and the model is sweet, its worth a try. Im not sure on that though.

I know characters dont make Fast Cav lose the Fast Cav bonus...I will try and find out for you.

Although Im sure as he would be riding a flying monster, he cant even join the Warhawk unit. So maybe he isnt the best option, its a shame he cant take a Warhawk.

[Kaffl]

Here's my intent:

I'm going to replace the Dryads and Branchwraith with 3 Warhawk Riders and a Spellsinger carrying as much dispel equipment as she can. My Highborn is going to lose the Shrikes and take Arcane Bodkins instead, so instead of having 1 extra shot at strength 4, he has only his 4 but they ignore armour. That makes the Waywatchers even better for finding heavily-armored targets and eliminating them.

The Alter Noble is getting re-done entirely. Still Alter Kindred, but with the Helm of the Hunt, Stone of the Crystal Mere, Light Armour, a Shield, and a Great Weapon. The armour is to save him against shooting. The opponent is generally at -2 to hit him (long range and single model), and he's got a 4+ armor save against shooting and a 3+ ward that goes away if he fails it. He's also got a sweet 5 attacks at WS7 and Strength 6 due to the Helm. I was tempted to give him 2 hand weapons for the extra attack, but I figured that was beyond overkill. He just needed some extra Strength and hope he gets the charge.

Here's an interesting question, can I buy more than 1 mundane weapon and choose which I want to use for a particular round of combat? Like, a Great Weapon for when I charge and 2 hand weapons in the next round? I think the whole 'or' in the unit entry says I can't

Ah well. So, what do y'all think of the revisions? I haven't done the math yet, but I'm almost certain I lost a few points somewhere in there.

Anyhoo,
-Kaffl

[Arguleon Veq]

Seems a good idea to me.

You can do that with weapons if your weapon options allow you to have that many. My DoW General on Pegasus runs a Lance and Brace of Pistols so when his Peg dies he used the 2 Pistols for an extra attack.

The Wood Elf option doesn't though. 2 Hand Weapons arent a good idea on him anyway, S4 on a model with so many attacks and such a long charge range is just a waste.

[Kaffl]

Well, I can say with no doubt in my mind that Warhawks have no place in my army. However, I'm not going to drop them simply because the models kick ass. Over the course of multiple games they've managed a total kill tally of 3 Fell Bats and 3 Handgunners. A lot of the time they weren't even shot down. I'm only hunting small game with them, but they're too d**n fragile.

However, I'm quickly learning tactics with my Wood Elfs, and I've found out just how nasty my shooting is. Once I get all the march blocking going, there's no way for my opponent to close the gap fast enough to not get shot to peaces. I've also scored my first 'inglorious' victory with my Asrai list. Playing against Helfs using Teclis, a mage and a Dragon Mage I scored a total massacre while only losing 17 models in the process. I've had other victories, but this game wasn't even fun. So far I have only a single loss in fact, that loss being entirely due to poor luck (and my opponent's great luck - there's no way it can be anything other when a single hero-level character destroys 2 units on his own, while one has rear-charged him).

At any rate, I've been busy thinking about things that may possibly replace the Warhawks, though truth be told I won't have the money. I'm saving my last $150 for school-time, and I'm not going to be able to make any more money this summer since I came down with Shingles. It figures that the stress of my job ultimately forces me into a position of not having one. Dammit.

Plus I want some Delf models. They're so cool looking, and Shadowblade seems so fun (albeit insanely broken... I will never, ever play against a Delf player using Shadowblade). I mean, I could actually have a decent Delf army if I wanted to for about $150... but I really need to save my money if I want to do anything cool... Plus my Daemons need some love.

I hate limited budgets...

[Arguleon Veq]

Hit and Run are the Warhawks biggest asset, that and march blocking. They are also decent on the offense with a Rear Charge.

Shadowblade is a bit of a point sink when you really look at him though.

[Kaffl]

Hit and run does nothing when you don't see combat... Dying on the first turn usually happens, mostly because they're simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. That is to say, it's not my fault, they just have insanely bad luck when it comes to friendlies running through them and causing them to run off the table, or fleeing from a charge only to flee 5 inches and get run down. That's generally their fate.

And Shadowblade may be a point sink, but the ability to wipe out any character he d**n well pleases when he pleases is more than a wee bit broken. And Str 8 throwing stars aren't much better.

[Arguleon Veq]

He won't kill any 3 wound character that has a 5+ ward though. Or even just a 1+ Save. For 300 points youd want him to kill the enemy Lord. He would be handy against enemy Wizard Lords but against any kind of combat Lord he will fail in his job and then die.