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Post by Arguleon Veq on Jul 26, 2008 21:42:35 GMT -5
How do you rank the current armies in terms of power? bearing in mind you have to weigh up the ultimate power builds with regular lists. Empire for example are very average but are deadly when using the ultra beardy dual steam tank + Karl Franz on Dragon list.
I reckon [No order within tiers];
Tier 1;
Daemons,
Vamp Counts,
High Elves.
Tier 2;
Wood Elves,
Brettonians,
New Dark Elves?.
Tier 3;
Dwarfs,
Lizards,
Skaven.
Tier 4;
Tomb Kings,
Empire.
Tier 5;
Ogres,
DoW,
Orcs and Gobs.
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Post by Kaffl on Jul 27, 2008 8:58:20 GMT -5
I put High Elfs at Tier 2 at best, probably Tier 3. They're just not that great unless they're in the hands of a really competent player.
Empire are better than a 4. I put them in Tier 3 or 2, they're great once you get to know how to play them. They just have a difficult learning curve. The same way with Ogres, I think Ogres can be a very tourney-competitive army if played properly, although I certainly wouldn't put them at a 2. Here is my Tier list.
Tier 1;
Daemons,
New Dark Elfs,
Vampires.
Tier 2;
Empire,
Dwarfs,
Skaven.
Tier 3;
Bretts,
High Elves,
Wood Elves,
Ogres.
Tier 4;
Orcs 'n' Gobbos,
Lizzies,
Tomb Kings.
Tier 5;
Lonely ol' Dogs of War.
That's just me though. I don't think anything at Tier 4 is really competitive, but Tier 3 and on up is. I think anything in the top 3 Tiers has the ability to beat anything else. In the lower Tiers it's more of a tough fight, but still possible to win.
I moved the Delfs from, Tier 2 to Tier 1 because I've gone over the book a couple times, and like all new armies they can capitalize on magic without sacrificing too much in other places. Of course that just makes them like all the new armies to come out.
Everything else I just sort of balanced against that first Tier I set up. You notice I put Helfs at Tier 3, mostly because few people can play them the way I think they are best played. They're best played with minimal magic, almost the way a Khorne Daemon army works. Magic Resistance on most of their units and lots of Close Combat.
Anyway, that's just how I see it. Everyone has their own views on different armies depending on what army they play.
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Post by smurf on Jul 27, 2008 10:27:25 GMT -5
unfortunately there are many armies that i have little or no experience of playing against, so i couldnt rank, so i couldnt fairly rank tomb kings, skaven or brettonians at all. As well as this i havent seen the new dark elf book at all.
I can't say i understand kaffl's take on high elves at all. In my experience they take very little tactical skill to use. I think thats really the point, it is always going to be based on individual's experience of the seperate armies. Depending on how they're played, daemons can be as low as tier 2 or 3, but they are easy to make a tier 1 army out of. I wouldnt put wood elves at lower that tier 2 because the only person i know who has seriously played them has had a large amount of success (although there is suspiciously more forest on the board when they are playing that his vampires)
It also depends on who is against who. Tzeentch is at a large disadvantage against dwarves or khorne, because they dont get to use their main advantage, but their opponents get to use theirs to the full.
For the aforementioned reasons, this ranking is based on my experience of the armies, and is only very rough
Tier 1
High Elves
Vampires
Some Daemons
(may well be Dark Elves)
Tier 2
Other Daemons
Wood Elves
Empire
Tier 3
Ogres
Dwarfs
Some Orcs and Gobbos
Tier 4
Lizardmen (non skink blowpipe army of death)
Most Orcs and Gobbos
DoW
I chose to leave off tomb kings, skaven and brettonians because i havent got a clue
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Post by Red dog on Jul 28, 2008 9:19:03 GMT -5
There isn't much I can say but this -> Level 1 - can be played by a beginner with 50/50 ratio at least, utterly devastating in expert's hands. Bretonians Daemons VCs High Elves Dwarfs Woodelves Level 2 - can be played very competitively, but takes skill to master the full potential of the army. Dark Elves (book is LOT more finesse then blunt HEs) TKs Empire Orcs&Gobbos Scaven Level 3 - Current underdogs. Yes you CAN win with them (lizards players on TPV prove that and I am trying to ^_^) but whether we like it or not, we are underdogs now. Lizards Ogres Beasts Mortals DoW I am not going to go in details, the title of level should say it all. Walk Tall everyone!!!!!  |
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Jul 28, 2008 10:18:52 GMT -5
I'd say Lizards are deffo more powerful than Orcs and Gobs, Animosity is army breaking as it is now. Ogres are probably better too, they just have a very different playstyle and take a while to master.
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Post by Kaffl on Aug 3, 2008 20:57:35 GMT -5
I still think High Elves are at best rank 2. They're really not that great, I've never had any trouble against them in my experience, even in the hands of good players.
Wood Elves I also argue are not rank 1. I say rank 2 at best there as well because it does take some amount of finesse to use them. If you put them in the hands of a beginner you'll steamroll them. As the players' experience increases, the power of the army does increase exponentially, but not to the point where they become the end-all be-all army.
And Red Dog, I have to argue with you about the Delfs. They're pretty d**n insane, especially once you factor in Shadow Blade, his ability to pop up next to oh, say, anything, and murder it with no difficulty. He also seems to like to throw Strength 8 Throwing Stars. Tell me that's not broken, ok? I put them Rank 1, especially for the time being. It's the new army and nobody knows how to deal with it yet, so they can't not be rank 1. That's the reason why Daemons are still up there I think.
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Aug 3, 2008 21:59:15 GMT -5
I disagree that Dwarfs are, they have a single serious powerbuild. The Thorek Gunline.
The new Dark Elves are not really tier one. They have that stupid pendant and assassin spamming and Hydras are great but they aren't level 1. Deffo level 2 though at the lowest.
I agree that WE are level 2. They are powerful and annoying to play against but not game breakers. The Treemonic Legion was very powerful, but it is fading due to the new power armies.
Empire are not top 2 IMO. The Stank/Alter or Franz/Hellborg list is powerful but even though is easily delt with if facing cannons and still isnt up to par with Vamps and Daemons.
Skaven aren't top 2 anymore either with Weapon Teams now so vulnerable. They were tier 1.
HE are in between 1 and 2. They fall apart against gunlines but they do have the Teclis Mage Lists. They have 2 game breaking rules. They have the Double Dragon lists too. The fact that one of their main strengths in Dragons sorts out their biggest bogie army in gunlines puts them tier 1 IMO.
After using my new Daemon army. They are very much tier 1 and I didnt even go for a power build.
I think I can have my list at;
Tier 1;
Daemons,
Vamp Counts,
High Elves.
Tier 2;
Wood Elves,
Brettonians,
New Dark Elves.
Tier 3;
Dwarfs,
Lizards,
Skaven.
Tomb Kings,
Empire.
Tier 4;
Ogres,
DoW,
Orcs and Gobs,
Chaos Mortals,
Chaos Beasts.
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Zenai
Soldier
Zenai the Reluctant; Elector Count of GC
Posts: 63
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Post by Zenai on Aug 4, 2008 21:18:25 GMT -5
WHAT?! DoW are not the bottom  Oh well, I always play the under-dogs anyway  |
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Post by Deraj on Aug 4, 2008 21:24:31 GMT -5
My question is "Why are Orcs and Gobbos so low?" I had some bad luck with them, but generally they are a pretty awesome army.
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Post by Kaffl on Aug 11, 2008 23:12:11 GMT -5
I still don't understand the logic in making Helfs a Tier 1 army. They really aren't all that broken as it is. I mean, no more broken than most Dwarfs or Skravens or somesuch. I've not had trouble with Helfs yet, and I've played against many builds, including Teclis Powerbuilds. There's no reason that they ought to be Tier 1. On a 4- or 5-tier scale, I put them at a 3. On a 3-tier, they're a 2. They're not bad of course, but I still have trouble seeing them winning tournaments. My Vamps steamrolled them. My Daemons steamrolled them. My Welfs steamrolled them. This is multiple players that are rather experienced, mind you.
I still put Delfs at Tier 1, mostly due to Shadowblade. Poof, Shadowblade appears and your general is dead. You Hierophant is dead. Your Vampire Lord is dead. Your single mage is dead. Your 25-man-stong unit of Khorne Chosen is dead. What? This is no way to play. Near-guaranteed kills are just silly.
And so is the Greater-Daemon-Killing take-a-toughness-test-on-2d6-and-add-them-together item. That item blows.
At any rate, I still hold to all my arguments. There's no way in heaven, hell or in between that Helfs are broken. Not after I've slaughtered so many.
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Aug 12, 2008 7:40:12 GMT -5
Ceratain armies are bad match ups for High Elves obviously but ASF and the ability to take extra rare and specials make them a very powerful force. Telis is the best spell caster in the game, they have the banner of sorcery and units striking first with great weapons.
They fall apart against Vamp Counts were striking first really doesnt make much of a difference and gunlines due to their flimsy armour and toughness.
They have the Star Dragon which in itself is very powerful combined with a nearly unkillable rider and they have double Dragon lists backed by loads of Dragon Princes. Lists like that often finish near the top of tournies.
Ive slaughtered High Elves a lot to but it doesnt mean their list isnt one of the most powerful. Current tourny results show VC and Daemons coming out on top with High Elves usually close behind then a big gap between them and the rest.
Shadowblade is rubbish. He will do 3 wounds on average. So come across a character with a 1+ Save or even just a 5+ Ward and he will only do 2 wounds. Which means he wont even kill the vast majority of Lords in the game. He is only really useful against Wizard Lords, again providing they dont have a Ward Save. He wouldn't stand a chance against Vamp Lords as they always at least have a 5+ Ward. How does he beat a unit of 25 Khorne Chosen with 3 Kills? Thats with the potion, after that his kills go down considerably.
For 300 points I would want him to actually be able to kill more than a 1-200 point hero level character, which is all he can reliably do.
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Post by Kaffl on Aug 12, 2008 9:03:08 GMT -5
Ceratain armies are bad match ups for High Elves obviously but ASF and the ability to take extra rare and specials make them a very powerful force. I was under the impression that this was because their Core simply aren't good enough, for their points, to carry a Helf army to victory. Was that wrong? Hah, you're funny. If we're gonna talk Special Characters, how about Lord Kroak or Mannfred von Carstein? I think that both are better casters than Teclis. Mannfred constantly generates 6 Power Dice, where Teclis can generate as low as 5 or as many as 7. That's an advantage for being constant and predictable. Mannfred knows 2 lores, Teclis knows 1. Mannfred has an ungodly amount of wounds and toughness 5, and Teclis is a sissy Helf and can't stand up in CC. Plus Mannfred gets extra dice for fighting in CC. Teclis only has his personal Book of Hoeth to fall back on, really. Oh yeah, and what about Kairos Fateweaver, AKA better-than-Kroak? He knows 14 spells, 8 of which are his choosing, he gets a constant +2 to cast, he can re-roll a die per player turn, he can't be wounded on better than a 3+, he's got a 3+ ward, he flies, he's got access to the strongest damaging spell in the game, and his 1 flaw is that he can't kill anything in Close Combat. He can survive in most cases, instability notwithstanding, but he can only kill 1 model per turn. If he can fly, he shouldn't be in Close Combat. I'm just sayin'. The banner of sorcery I don't mind, although the ASF great weapons are pretty devastating. If I can find one thing I'd like to change about the Helfs, it's that, although they need it to win. Gunlines I agree with you. Against Vamps though, ASF is the difference between losing Helfs and not losing Helfs. It's all about CR with Vamps, and Helfs know how to not get dead. Plus Helf magic can really damper a nice VC magic phase. They're not at a loss against Vampires, this I know. I've played enough Helfs to know this. How is the rider nigh-unkillable? I bet I could kill him. A unit of Waywatchers would take 2 turns max with not hideous luck to kill him I bet. And yes, the Star Dragon is powerful, but that too has weaknesses. Like, oh, say, Empire Great Cannons. 2 or 3 shots should be plenty enough to knock one down. That Double Dragon Dragon Prince combo meal doesn't particularly frighten me either, I mean, what does it do besides move fast? I can see some armies really struggling against that, like Tzeentch Daemons who have nothing they can do about it (d**n Banner of World Dragon/Null Magic whatsit), but in most cases they can be beaten in combat without too much difficulty. Dragon Princes can't beat Block Units on the turn they charge, unless they get a juicy flank charge at the same time as a front charge, which is not easy with hordie armies or refused flank tactics. That surprises me, but it's not something I can argue against. If results really put them in the top 3, then so be it. I just really don't think they're all that good, and I hardly take them into account when I design a list. In fact, my all-comers list usually beats tooled High Elfs. And thems is my Welf army. The Chosen bit was an exaggeration. I've only beaten that unit of chosen twice, and that was with a major expenditure of effort. Luckily I didn't have to worry about fighting anything else in that game  Even so... The potion makes him Strength 7, meaning against most things (lets put him against your run-of-the-mill lord with, say, a 3+ save and a 5+ ward) he'll hit on 3's, with re-rolls, and wound on 2's. Now, I don't know exactly how many attacks he gets, I've forgotten, but it must be somewhere around 5 or 6. He does have 2 hand weapons, right? We'll assume 5. Of the first 5 attacks, 3 hit. Roughly average. With re-rolls, another hits. 4 hits, and we'll say 4 wounds to even out the luck. No armour save, just the 5+ ward. 5+ ward most likely save 1 wound, maybe 2 if you're lucky. Even so, 2 wounds made out of nothing hurts, and that's if the player on the receiving end is kinda lucky. That doesn't kill a lord how? Granted, it's a bit difficult, but I doubt Shadowblade is gonna die on that turn anyway. 'Specially if he challenged. If he did, then either the opponent accepted with a champion who'll be worm-food in no time, and Shadowblade can't be attacked that round, or he declined, and Shadowblade can just send the champion to the back and whack the Lord anyway, and Shadowblade will likely only take 2 attacks back due to maximising. The ability to wipe a character of your choosing out of the fight is broken. Period. I don't even care if it takes another character to do it, the fact is that it's just stupid to be able to pop up in whatever unit you please at any time and wipe out whatever character is in that unit, and quite probably the unit itself if it's a weak enough unit, like Glade Guard. Plus in block units him just being there means that you won't get your full rank bonus, since he displaces a model. What's up with that? |
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Aug 12, 2008 11:37:53 GMT -5
High Elf Spearmen are great for 9 points, especially when joined by a Character and the choice for a magical banner.
Those other spellcasters may be better in combat but they are not better spellcasters. Teclis has the choice of any lore so he can pick whatever is best against any army and he knows ALL of the spells. He casts with ANY double, which is a lot better than the possible 1 extra power Manfred gets and the +2 Kiaros gets. Then he adds +d3 power. He pretty much ignores miscasts. Then he has amazing magical defense with +1 to Dispell, +D3 Dispel Dice AND a destroy spell scroll.
A 2+ Re-Rollable save and a 4+ Ward makes the character VERY hard to kill when it comes to the Dragon Lord. Waywatchers kill him? They will get 1 turn of shooting at best, even if in a wood he can just park outside and burn them down. Say a unit of 8, out of 8 shots you get 1 killing blow, then you only have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the rider, then you have to get past a 4+ Ward. Which means you would need on average 5 rounds of shooting to kill that rider with a unit like that.
Empire Great Cannons? which will get 1 turn of shooting? thats if the opponent doesnt use terrain properly. Then you have to roll an artillery dice twice. Meaning you only get 1 hit with 2 Cannons if you are lucky. Then there is a chance of it hitting the lord and his ward save stopping it, if it hits the Dragon it takes 3 of its 7 Wounds. Plus thats 1 army in the game, even they have a hard time dealing with it. Especially 2 Dragons.
Dragon Princes cant beat a unit with a frontal charge? 6 Dragon Princes with full command do on basic infantry [T3, 5+ Save] - 8 Kills, then +1 for the banner. Against a unit of 20 the enemy then dont even get to outnumber you. So you win by about 4. They even have a shot at beating very resiliant units such as Dwarfs with Hand Weps and Shields.
Shadowblade? He gets 4 Attacks. So he caused 3 wounds against pretty much anything. 1 Save for a 5+ Ward = 2 wounds. Lord Lives. Then Shadowblade is pretty useless with his S4. The Lord say has 4 S5 Attacks [and that is low], he then wounds Shadowblade. Killing him next turn. Against a unit Shadowblade gets his 3 wounds, then loses on combat Res, not eough to usually break, but he gets less wounds next turn, losses on combat res and breaks.
Sure he is decent, but he is in no way broken an is only a game winner if you use him very very smartly, which means not popping him out in combat with an enemy character in a ranked up unit.
Perhaps its just the HE players youve been playing against, or that you are much better than said players?. Wood Elves should really have a very hard time with a decent HE player.
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Oh well, I always play the under-dogs anyway 
)