Empire and Bretonnia: War? :

[Arguleon Veq]

At no time in the history of Fantasy have the Empire and Brettonia
had a full-scale war against one another, yes there have been a few
minor battles and skirmishes but no out right wars.

I was wondering what you all think the outcome would be? (no flaming
and please dont be biased because you collect one of these armies).

It is entirely feasable that some power mad fool could gain control
in these old world super powers, more likely in brettonia due to the
election system of the empire but still possible in both.

Obviously this would have to happen in a time of relative peace when
chaos and ork attacks are few as not even a madman would launch a war
with another super power when you are threatened from other fronts (well thinking about it besides hitler).

Personally i believe that the empire would succeed. There are the
basic reasons:

More man power.
More advanced( empire were fighting like the brettonians hundreds of
years ago).
More defences(such as castles forts, citadels etc, although the
bretts do have many).
Less rigidity in their way of war so more of a willingness to adapt.

There is also the fact that Kislev would heavily aid the empire as
would marienburg.
The dwarves would definatly help the empire(their longest standing
and most trusted allies).
The empire has reasonably strong ties with the high elves where as
the bretts have very few and the high elves would rather the empire
succeed as they are the ones doing most of the war against chaos.
The empire would be willing to hire many tilean forces to aid them
where as the bretts would turn their noses up at mercs.
Estalia i doubt would get involved.

The bretts do have the wood elves but i doubt they would really leave
loren en masse to launch a major war despite its significance and
elves are not the most trusted of allies.

So i reckon that the empire would prevail.

What about you?.

[Arguleon Veq]

The statements in italics are possible arguements that people
could have for the bretonnians winning and each has a reply to
counter it.

but the high elves would be more willing to aid bretonians than
almost any other race.'

No not at all, if they did get involved they have far closer links
with the empire.

Firstly, no mad power crazed loon would become Ruler of Bretonnia,
as they have to be crowned by the Fay Enchantress, and by extension
the Lady herself. I dont think the Lady would allow someone like that
to become King of Bretonnia.'

Fair enough but the same can be said of the grand theoganists and a
fair few of them have turned out to be bad eggs.

'the mass of knights would smash aside any resistance. '

I seriously doubt this, the empire is far more organised and after
over 2000 years of war im sure that they won't be completley undone
by a cavalry charge.

'you would have to find Knightly Orders mad enough to go to war with
Bretonnia (Not many would be that mad)'

Any kinghtly order asked to participate would do so. They would want
to test their strength against other knights and they would want to
help expand the empire. I assure you the empire knightly oders would
not fear brettonian knights as for the most part empire knights are
easily their equals, in some cases they are worse others better but
they would see themselves as superior wether this is true or not.

Actually the empire has a massive number of knights.
Not quite as many as brettonia but these would for the most part be
gathered into their orders where as the brettonians often have
single knight defending a town, they would have huge problems
bringing a force together which is precisley why they launch crusades
as this gives them a chance to get a force together and disrupt the
enemy before an attack even begins.

'From then on, its a case of smashing the Empire Infantry (Who would
probably be laying seige to one of the Bretonnians Castles). There
advantage in cannons would be destroyed by the Mobile Pegasus
Knights, launching raids from the City, and driving off the Crew.
Then the Knights in the City would sally out, and slaugher the
besiegers, with help from the Kings army that would have been
destroying the Knightly Orders.'

Once again it would be nowhere near that simple. There arent pegasus
knight in every castle and even if there were it would only be a vey
small number(under 5, 5 at the very most in many places) they dont
leave artillerey unprotected, its not like a game of warhammer where
its just the crew to defend the guns they have a huge force gaurding
them many of which can man them.

[Arguleon Veq]

You also seem to be suggesting that everybody from the empire army
would be gathered together besides the orders(who would probably be
supporting various empire forces not just bouncing around alone). If
this was the case with one massive army then there would be nothing
at all the bretts could do, castles would fall in hours.

It is more likely there would be many,many different armies.

'And Besides, we would probably get some Peasants to give them False
Directions. Yeah, send the Empire straight to Mousillon, while we
have a jolly good laugh.'

I doubt it, the empire might have gone charging off about 1000 years
ago when they faught like the brettonians do now, but they are a very
organised force and would not just go charging off. Mousillon would
not be a target and they would not be lured there. If it was the
other way around the brettonians due to their rashness and bieng
headstrong could be lured into mousillon.

'Dwarfs: They too have there own problems, and besides, we keep
helping them out, driving away Orks that besieged there Holds.'

Dwarves would definatley get involved, not every hold in under
threat, many even prosper.
The empire are the closest allies the dwarves have ever had and they
would definatly send help, the dwarves are loyal allies.

'Kislev: They also have problems (Yeah, constant Chaos Invasions
kinda suck)'

It often suffers raids which it can deal with but isn't under
constant serious threats of invasion(just every now and then and it
always suffers the brunt). The gryphon legion are trained and based
in the empire, they would send a small force just as a show of unity
even if it isn't all that large a force.

'So all the Empire would get are a few mercs out of Tilea, who wont
do that much against the Brettonnian Knights.'

Many mercs would be in the empire army. Which consequently would
probably attack through the south of brettonia seriously thowing them
off.

Tileans would be perfect for taking on brettonians. Pike walls
against an army so stuck in their ways that they would gladly launch
a frontal cavalry charge to show that they are honourable and not
affraid. Add to this the bretts absoloute hate of mercs you would
have them charging straight at tilean forces.

I don't think there is anyway the empire could lose. The attack could
die off(as it would probabaly be the empire attacking as there would
really be no chance the other way around) as after the initial
invasion they might decide it is best to leave it how it is and not
send any more troops due to other threats. Still they would have
conquered many parts of northern and eastern brettonia.

'Now, the one clear path into Bretonnia from the Empire is Axe Bite
Pass.'

Or they could just go through Couronne. They could also attack on the
coast as the empire is massively superior in navel terms, the bretts
as a seafaring nation are a relatively poor and the empire could land
at will at various points on the brettonian coast. They could attack
on all three of these main fronts plus tileans through the south.
There are also many other routes that smaller armies would take. A
war isnt just a simple matter of one big battle here and another
there, it is massive involving many,many battles and fronts.

'On the Bretonnian side, it is guarded by Chateau De Montfort (which
also happens to be the best Bretonnian website around). Even if the
Empire managed to drag there Heavy Artillery through the pass, I
doubt De Montford would fall quickly. But it would probably do so
eventually.'

Just because a castle is there it does not mean that the empire needs
to engage it. Even so a portion of the empire force would and if it
is any type of sizable force it would fall rather quickly, if you
think about real history after the advent of the cannons etc heavily
defended postions such as castles become far more insignificant and
fell very quickly.

[Arguleon Veq]

This doesnt affect a lot of the fantasy world but where the empire is
involved it would matter significantly. Now so far in fantasy history
this hasnt mattered as the empire has never launched a major force
against anybody with major fortifications and when they have it has
been to far away or the conditions to bad to utalise artillery. Every
other circumstance has seen artillery used defensively.

The old world and particularly bretonnia is the only place that using
large numbers of atillery offensively could be achieved and due to
this any defence would fall not within a matter of weeks but probably
days or less. Nuln is reasonably close to the pass which would mean
getting artil, there would be simpler.

'Of course, during this time, King Louen Leoncoeur would have
declared an Errantry War, to defend Bretonnia. This would build up a
massive force of knights, numbering in the Tens of Thousands. All
very well motivated, and eager to take revenge on the Empire forces.
In addition, the Fay Enchantress, along with the vast army of Grail
Knights would have assembled, and would march to war along side the
King.'

It would take as long if not longer for a brett force to gather as it
would for the empire to launch an invasion due to the very disperate
and dispersed nature of the brettonian forces. Also the talk of large
forces for brettonia is nothing to the truely massive forces of the
empire, the empire kinghtly orders would probabl match any errantry
war for size (many many schools each with hundreds+ kinights).

'So, now we go back to the Empire forces. After taking Montfort, they
would probably march south, to Parravon. Parravon is a major walled
city, with only a bridge allowing access. '

Some part of the empire force from axe bite would go to Parravon(take
in mind that the force from axe bite pass is only probably about 1/4
of the empire whole, so this force is a part of that), probably
consisting of lots of artillery. You would also think that the bretts
would try to engage the empire rather than fight defensively as
sieges nullify the bretts main force for the most part(cavelry).

'Pegasus Knights. Lots and Lots of Pegasus Knights. (Which is why an
army with lots of Pegasus Knights is refered to as an Army of
Parravon, among other things!) Anyway, these Pegasus Knights would
enable Parravon to hold out against the Empire Arty. Mainly by
launching Lightning raids against the Gun Emplacements. Think of
Parravon as a massive Minas Tirith, and your pretty close.'

Again this goes back to my point about artillery bieng far more
effective agaist fortifications that you are givig it credit for.
Also artillery isnt like it is in actual fantasy games it is well
defended no doubt by many handgunners which would cause massive
casualties on the pegasus knights. Even if it was the biggest force
of peg knights in histroy it would still be tiny in comparison to the
force defending the artillery as it pounds the castle and would stand
no chance of silincing even a megre part of the artillery as its not
like there are 3 man per gun alone.

Now if the bretts engaged the empire and didnt fight a mainly siege
war then they would be far more effective as it would be harder for
the empire to bring firepower into things but still this is where the
empire numbers, organisation and tactics would finally win through
but it would be far more difficult.

'So, the Empire army is besieging Parravon, with there arty (if they
managed to get any through the mountain pass) being dealt with. Maybe
some of the Army are off doing other things, marching into Bastonne,
Montfort or Quenelles. Not important for our purposes. As the seige
drags on, the Kings army would get closer, probably taking out any
forces left in Montfort, thus cutting off the Empire forces from
there home. This would almost crush the morale of the Empire forces,
knowing that they would have to fight there way out.'

This point no longer can be really replied to if we presume my
previous points are fair as there will be attacks on far more fronts
and castles would be falling much quicker. Still the kings army would
play a significant part and would be involved in a major battle but
this would be against only one of the empire forces and it would
stand an even chance of winning but even if they did it probably
would be enough to turn the tide of the war and if it didnt the kings
army would be in no state to contribute much further( they would also
only be stopping the empire on the courone front as they couldnt
afford to leave that route open by reinforcing parravon).

'From then, the Massed forces of the Bretonnian Army and the Empire
army would probably clash outside of Parravon, in a Battle that would
decide the fate of the war'

There would be no clash involving most of the forces involved but the
major fight would probably be between the kings army and a big force
attacking through Couronne. Ive mentioned this earlier so those
points apply to this. This empire force would probably have most of
the knightly orders as its the clearest route into brettonia so this
would be a really cool battle.

'Now, if the Empire hadnt just had a massive chaos invasion, laying
waste to large parts of the Empire, along with two large armies, then
that might be the case.'

Thing is this as said at the start would obviously have to be done in
a time of peace and it wouldnt be set straight after the storm, which
means that the empires wieght of forces would prevail.

'But, as shown by the Tau, who stopped an Imperial Invasion in its
tracks. Yes, if the entire Imperium took on the Tau, the Tau would be
wiped out quickly. But the Imperium has bigger fish to fry (Chaos,
Nids, Necrons, Orks). Same with the Empire. They have bigger
priorities, so a quick smackdown in Bretonnia would quickly change
the Empire views on attacking Bretonnia.'

Again this goes back to my previous point of when this would occur.
Yes i also agree that if something kicked off in the empire the
invasion would fade out and it would be like the damocles crusade as
ive said in a previous part but the empire would still have taken
quite a bit of new land.

[elflord9d]

Wow thats a lot. But you have to remember the wood elves are alied with the Brets. If the Brets and Empire fight, the WE and dwarves would right in the middle of it, The dwarves would probably fight alongside the Empire because they hate the elves, and the elves would kill anything that got into the woods. Basicly both sides would be trashed big time before it was over. The elves would help the Brets into victory though.

[Arguleon Veq]

I covered the whole Elves and Dwarfs thing quite extensively.

The Empire would never need to enter Athel Loren, I did cover the routes of Empire advance in the posts. The Wood Elves would not leave Loren to help Bretonnia against a foe which as far as they are concerned aren't much different to the Bretonnians, they might if it was a force of evil invading but its not.

There is no way the Bretonnians could win in my opinion.

[CaptainFarell]

I am seriously wondering why you spent so much time talking to yourself.


Bretonnia would be amazingly foolish if it were to try to start a war with The Empire. However, either way they have one advantage: Knights = cavalry. Cavalry = fast. If they were defending, they would know the land better.They would be able to react more quickly (as a full force, not just as a section) to what the Empire does. If they are assaulting, They would be able to launch a lightning strike before the enpire knows what is happening (this is assuming they aren't daft enough to post a declaration of war to Karl Franz). In the wither way, it is unlikely that Bretonnia would win, but it puts things closer to being fair.

[elflord9d]

How long did it take you to think of all of that?

[Arguleon Veq]

All the arguements in Italics for the Bretonnians winning are arguements put forward by other people from various other places.

[Archangel Tirus]

Well. The brets could not couqour the empire front on, due to the fortifications of the Empire and Cannon technology.
There only chance is there increadible ability to move (assuming they were marching on cav only armies and then foot man as a finishing crew.) They could flank entire cities meaning that the empire might not know what is going on untill its to late.
Its all up to your imagination and imiage of the fluff

[Wargamer]

I think the Bretonnians would be at a disadvantage. After all, most of their land is open plains, whereas most of the Empire seems to be forest... and horses do not to well in woodland.

[mattos]

Brets could fend off an invasion:

they would know the lay of the land, and can use that to their advantage.
The Kislevites may help the empire or may not because they wouldn't choose sides especially if the empire, which is on good terms with the Bretonians at the moment, launched the attack for no reson. The Kislevites would probably just build up an army fearing an invasion from the empire to if they would attack bretonia. Dwarves might send gold to fund or war machines to the empire but wouldn't get involved in a "human fight" especially since both have helped them in the past (one more than the other though hence sending war machines to the empire). The high elves also wouldn't fight in a "human war" and as mentioned in other posts the wood elves would only kill if they went in the forest. The Empire woundn't hire to many mercs. this is proven by looking hgow many merc armies fought in storm of chaos. empire artillery attacking the bret castles would be effective but the brets also have their one war machine to fight back with. Not all bret nobles are high and mighty and would hire a few mercs (not many though). Bret cavalry would be powerful against the empires infantry and could storm out of the castle when needed towards the enemy. peasent armies would grow outof the country sides and attack the invaders. Erranty war would be called and that would also boost the forces. The green knight and the fay enchantress would come to attack. The empire force would have to mobleize to attack and by that time Bretonians would know about it. Beastmen in the empire's forests would attack any army from either sides because their beastmen. so the brets could defend against an empire attack.