Cammerz
Militia
Not your fish, Oedipuss' fish!
Posts: 21
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Post by Cammerz on Nov 17, 2008 12:37:51 GMT -5
OK, I've decided to replicate my big ol' yellow book of lists online so people over here can comment and critisize Most army lists are 2000pters and most have been changed multiple times but I am typing up the latest versions, anyway, on with the list
Beastlord, heavy armour, tuskgor chariot, slaughterer's blade, fur of sharrgu, talisman of protection, horn of the great hunt
Wargor, army standard, beast banner, heavy armour (will go with bestigors)
Bray shaman, lvl 2, staff of darkoth, chaos armour
19 bestigors, full command, Mark of chaos undivided
2x 12 gors, 8 ungors with shields, full command (1 unit has hand weapons and shields, the other has 2 hand weapons)
2x tuskgor chariot
15 warhounds
2x 5 centigors, full command, throwing axes, shields
dragon ogre shaggoth, light armour, great weapon
so tell me what you think, as with most lists in my book I am quite happy with it but any majorly important changes will be considered
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Nov 18, 2008 8:01:59 GMT -5
I like the list. I would split the Hounds into 3 units though. I would also lose the Full Commands on the Centigors. Especially with them having throwing axes, they seem more like a harassment unit to me than a mainline fighting unit which is where you want your Full Command Groups.
You are much better off using 3 Dragon Ogres with Light Armour and Great Weapons than the Shaggoth. Or even just using your Shaggoth model as a giant. They just really dont cut it and cant win combats on their own despite being so many points.
If you opt to do that, then you can give your Tuskgor Chariots the Mark of Khorne [in the Beasts FAQ - On the GW site] which makes them hard enough to beat a unit on their own AND gives you all important dispel dice.
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Post by Rezzy on Nov 18, 2008 8:08:26 GMT -5
It's a shame how often the juicy units are just not worth taking. I like the look of your army dude.
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Nov 18, 2008 8:27:04 GMT -5
Yeah its annoying. They should have made Shaggoths Stubborn but maybe on LD8. Even with the cheaper and improved Warriors of Chaos version they STILL aren't worth taking, its a shame considering how awesome the model is. Most people just use that model as a Giant in my experience. I think thats kind of the point though. Make the model awesome and useless so you buy the model anyway. Make rubbish models awesome in the game so you buy them anyway. Or maybe Im just a cynic
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Cammerz
Militia
Not your fish, Oedipuss' fish!
Posts: 21
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Post by Cammerz on Nov 18, 2008 12:52:49 GMT -5
Hounds into 3 OK, I suppose it means fewer people will bother with them and they turn into more expendable units that can hold up the deadly ones whilst another unit charges the rear
remove centigor command groups, Ok, I understand that
it really is a pity about the shaggoth, the model looks so good and it costs a fortune, why can't it just be decent on the field
removing both the shaggoth and the centigor commands gives me about 375pts but what sort of things would be suited to filling the rather large gap that they made
I like giants and with the mutant monstrosity I could use a shaggoth model in its place I'm not sure about dragon ogres, mainly because I really don't like the model and they're expensive but I like the idea of a big centrepiece model which they just aren't Other things will be considered but I want something not too expensive and works well on the battlefield
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Nov 18, 2008 15:36:00 GMT -5
I would just make him a Giant with Mutant Monstrosity.
Keep the Musicians in the Centigors though in case you want to flee and use them as bait.
This gives you 137 Points to play with.
With those points I would personally give your Chariots both the Mark of Khorne. Your Bestigors the Warbanner and then add a Warhound to each of your 5 strong units to make 6 in each.
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Cammerz
Militia
Not your fish, Oedipuss' fish!
Posts: 21
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Post by Cammerz on Nov 18, 2008 17:00:14 GMT -5
how come the shaggoths are so bad, I am looking at the stats compared to the giant
1" better movement 3! better WS same BS 1 less strength same toughness same wounds 1 better initiative a decent number of attacks compared to the the giant's special attacks 1 less leadership
it has a 4+ scaly skin save which along with light armour I think would make it 3+
with a great weapon the strength would boost up so it was 1 better than the giant, it doesn't fall over and it is immune to psycology as well as being immune to all lightning based attacks, and don't forget the awesome looking model
now how exactly is it bad
looking at this, the giant looks bad not the shaggoth
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Nov 18, 2008 17:25:02 GMT -5
Well Initiative doesn't matter as Shaggoths should have Great Weapons anyway. WS Doesn't matter as Giants dont really use it. BS doesn't matter either.
The Shaggoth charges into an enemy unit. Most mainline units start with a Static Combat Res of 5. Which means even if you hit and wound with every single attack you make, you lose. Thanks to the enemy Musician.
It doesn't even do that though. It kills about 3 models instead. Which means you are losing by at least 2 against the vast majority of units. Then your 300+ Point model is taking a break test on LD7. Thats assuming the enemy didn't get a wound on you.
At LD 7 taking a Break Test means you fail 50% of the time. So 50% of the time, your 300+ Point model will lose in combat [where it is at its best] to bog standard units but not only will it lose it will run.
The Giant, has a great chance of actually winning combats very easily. Even when it doesn't. It doesn't matter as it is Stubbborn with Ld 10.
Even if we look at the Giants attacks against Infantry.
On a 1, you win. On a 2, you win. On a 3 you lose and do worse than the Shaggoth [but see above] On a 4-6, you lose and do just as good as a Shaggoth.
So 1/3rd of the time your much better, 1/2 the time your just as good at dealing damage but much better as you wont break. 1/6 of the time you deal less damage but are still better as you wont break were the Shaggoth has a big chance of breaking. If you do get Jump Up and Down he carries on doing it, so he wins in subsequent rounds of combat too.
The only thing Shaggoths are good for is taking down Knights. Even then they run a big risk of losing if they are charged [not like many Knights would be silly enough to charge it anyway] and it can get charged thanks to Elven and Brettonian Cavalry out ranging it. The Giant beats Knights just as easily though.
The Shaggoth really is one of the worst unit options. Of any book. It just doesn't work. The Giant works because he is Stubborn. The Hydra works because he has 7 Attacks with Re-Rolls PLUS 6 weaker attacks. The Shaggoth cant do either, it cant win combats with kills and it cant hold when it loses.
Then it is almost double the cost of a Hydra and 80+ points more than a Giant [an extra Chariot].
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Cammerz
Militia
Not your fish, Oedipuss' fish!
Posts: 21
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Post by Cammerz on Nov 19, 2008 15:54:02 GMT -5
Oh dear, I've just noticed a mistake on my list, turns out that the slaughterers blade can only be taken by characters on foot so I need a new weapon for my beast lord
any suggestions?
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Nov 19, 2008 16:38:31 GMT -5
Drop it for a Sword of Might and a Shield so you get a 2+ in combat and 0+ vs shooting. Plus it makes you S6 which isn't bad at all.
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Cammerz
Militia
Not your fish, Oedipuss' fish!
Posts: 21
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Post by Cammerz on Nov 19, 2008 17:08:44 GMT -5
how exactly does 0+ work, being majorly a 40k player I've never seen anything like this before
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Nov 20, 2008 17:53:57 GMT -5
It just means that when the save id modified by the strength of the attack, you still only need a 2+ [as a 1 always fails].
So with a 0+, against a Handgun which gives you -2 save [-1 for S4, and -1 for armour piercing] you would get a 2+ save, which means you still only fail if you roll a 1. Where as if you had a 2+ save originally, then it would be reduced to 4+. It doesnt help at all against things like S3 bows that dont modify your save, as against those 0+ is only as good as 2+. Its still handy when there are so many S4 and/or armour piercing shots out there.
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Post by grunt90 on Nov 21, 2008 18:55:27 GMT -5
I thought the minimum save over all was 1+?
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Post by grunt90 on Nov 21, 2008 18:56:54 GMT -5
also, on the list. The only thing I see are the bestigors are a huge point sink. You really need to hide those guys from shooting, as just about any shooting will kill them off w/ only heavy armour. replacing them w/ minotaurs would be my opinion, but since they are not specifically marked w/ a god, and also are 20 strong, they might do a lot better then any luck i usually had. ( i used to run 13 w/ wargor, mon)
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Post by Arguleon Veq on Nov 21, 2008 19:35:09 GMT -5
Nope, can go as low as you can get it really. The Rulebook just says;
'...it is possible to get a better save. Magic armour is one way to improve the wearers armour save to a 1+ or even less!...'
I think anything that gets below 0 is frowned on though and wasnt really intended. A Chaos Lord on Jugger with Enchanted Shield for example is a -1 save.
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